Overcoming Obstacles to Build a Brighter Future w/ Tereva Jacobson

[00:00:00] Patrick McGrath: That's impressive. So you guys were able to pay down during the pandemic $150,000 worth of debt yeah. In about 18 months. 

[00:00:11] Tereva Jacobson: So I would say just short of two years we still have a much smaller balance, but just short of two years. We were, I think we paid down 135 by now.

Intro: You're listening to the real fi podcast where we discuss time, tested tricks, techniques, and strategies for pursuing financial independence today so that we can enjoy a better tomorrow financial independence.

[00:00:38] Isn't about getting rich quick. It's about cultivating a foundation to grow financially, mentally, physically, and spiritually. Let's figure out how to kick the nine to five. Here are your hosts, Patrick and James, 

[00:00:52] Patrick McGrath: and welcome back to another edition of the real fi podcast. I'm your host Patrick McGrath with my co-host [00:01:00] James Ripon.

[00:01:00] How's it going, James 

[00:01:02] James Rippeon: going well, man, living 

[00:01:03] Patrick McGrath: the life. That's what I love to hear. That's what I love to hear. It's a beautiful Wednesday. It's 80 degrees here in Maryland. Hopefully it's beautiful. Everywhere else. I'm sure it's beautiful. Where our guest today is at. We've got a great guest where you're super excited.

[00:01:18] Her name is T and she's here to drop some nuggets. T how are you doing today? 

[00:01:24] Tereva Jacobson: Hi guys. I'm super, super good. Yes. Ho is beautiful weather. I think we are in the eighties as well today. Thank you for having me on, of course, 

[00:01:35] Patrick McGrath: James, kick it off and let's get this thing started. So T 

[00:01:38] James Rippeon: we're super excited to have you on this podcast and kind of open up all the cool things that you're doing and talk to you about financial I penance and everything that, you know, as it relates to money and finances, but why don't you take us back a little bit and tell us a little bit about where you came from a little bit about your background, and maybe tell us a little bit about why financial independence is important to you.[00:02:00] 

[00:02:01] Tereva Jacobson: Yes for sure. Thank you. So I live in Hawaii, but I am from Tahiti. So right. Different country, different culture, mindset, and all that. I was raised by a single mom. I have two older siblings. I am the baby. I was also born. She had me at when she was almost 40 years old. So there's also like a, almost a generational gap, a big generational gap there.

[00:02:25] When it comes to finances, I will say that my mom never liked finances whatsoever. I was just talking to a friend yesterday where she probably did her books twice a year. She had, the stack of checkbooks that, you had to hand write everything and then you keep that little stub there and she would just of go through that.

[00:02:45] So financially I wasn't really exposed to opportunities or to a wealth of money. Really. The one thing that sh my mom always said was that her two brothers, my own [00:03:00] were smart businessmen because they own rentals, but it wasn't a subject that came up often or what or any of that. It's just something I always kept in the back of my mind.

[00:03:09] At 18 years old, I, so I just graduate from high school. I meet this Maui boy and I came to Maui to be with this guy. And I've been on Maui for almost 20 years now. So most of my life is here. And as a matter of fact, I will say that I entered society here on Maui. I never had a job before. I was, I never had to do.

[00:03:35] Any kind of household chores as I was a, the baby and spoiled. So thrown into adulthood, at a young age, without much preparation, including getting a job, budgeting, money, making money and spending money and also learning about credit. But that is my background.

[00:03:53] James Rippeon: That's awesome. I think every one of us has like those experiences with family members or friends that, you [00:04:00] get to see like the total rich dad, poor dad perspective from the people you associate with in life. I know I had a lot of that, growing up just to give perspective on some of my friends' families, then my family, and then just comparing those situations.

[00:04:14] Tell us a little bit about your uncles that had the rentals and what that kind of looked like. And what. What sounded so interesting to you about that. Yeah. 

[00:04:24] Tereva Jacobson: Where we lived, it was a super small like street with four homes because my mom had three siblings and their parents gave them each a and two of them were rentals of my uncles.

[00:04:40] So they would come maybe once a month just to check in on their rentals. But each of my uncles also had businesses. One of them who's the youngest of my uncles. He is a major farmer in Tahiti. And owned that business for sure. But he was able to acquire his own homes before [00:05:00] inheritance and all that.

[00:05:01] So once inheritance came in from my grandparents, then he just turned them into rentals, cuz he already owned, lend and homes. But he was also a business owner. And then the other uncle just actually was like a major landlord in Tahiti and that's I just always knew and I've always been, I've been, I was always good with numbers.

[00:05:20] I, I have the scientific brain where numbers just make sense and to me, so I just always knew that, alright, you owe money. Maybe in their case they didn't cuz they inherited homes. But as a landlord, you owe money, you charge rent. That gap is yours. So obviously it was just a simple math.

[00:05:42] Income income from rentals. And then you've got a mortgage payment. That difference is yours. I obviously did not know all the little things, the taxes and CapEx and all that, but it's always been in the back of my mind. And I remember at 20 something years old my husband back then I had told [00:06:00] him like, Hey, we should just buy a home.

[00:06:01] Even though we were still living with his parents, I'm like, we should just buy a home and rent it out and see how this whole thing works. We never did. But it, again, it was just like something like, I know there is something there. And the other thing was. I always knew like retirement was at a lot of money for most people.

[00:06:20] Social security. Wasn't a lot of money. And I told myself, how are we going to live off of $500 a month or $800 a month? Whatever that number ends up being, how are we going to live off of that? If right now I can barely live off of that amount. Like it's gonna be impossible. So I just always saw myself.

[00:06:40] There's, you're gonna have to do something now to, if you're gonna work until you're in your sixties, at least after that, you're not gonna be banking or hoping for retirement money, pension or social security, whatever your plan was, you better like figure things out now and just not be completely dependent on something like [00:07:00] that and be stuck somewhere.

[00:07:02] Patrick McGrath: That totally makes sense. I. And I think that's a thought process that goes through every single person's mind, is like, what am I gonna do? Some, a lot of times that happens later in life or sometimes, and people think that they can't start when anyone can start at any time, so it's first getting that light switch to go off. So it sounds like you had that light switch go off, but so now bring us to the forward where you got started, like where did it all start? Take us back to, that first deal or, and where you're at now? What does that look like now?

[00:07:39] We know like why you wanted to get into it and your past on seeing, people that had done it. So bring us to the present now and tell us about what you got going on. 

[00:07:51] Tereva Jacobson: Yes. Awesome. So there is a huge gap between the idea and the knowledge that this. Is a strategy that [00:08:00] works for retirement. And when I actually started many reasons, I feel like I was in my twenties.

[00:08:05] I definitely enjoyed my twenties. I'm a dancer. So I was in the entertainment business for a really long time. We do not have those conversations about, Hey, future plan for your future and whatever. I wasn't. I I wasn't a young mom either. Planning for the future came in really late in my life, I would say later than a lot of people nowadays.

[00:08:27] I became a mom 28 or 29 years old. And then I started hustling with multiple jobs. So I went years working my butt off with two, three jobs between dancing and I have a financial background. I worked for a bank and I be, I was a manager. So all of that just takes away from, Hey, like you're planning for the future and all that.

[00:08:48] So I am, so now we are in 2017, is that 33 years old? Can't remember 30 something, 2017 fortune builders ad comes [00:09:00] on radio. He come to our free workshop. I show up, I'm interested because this is real estate investing this. And they were validating everything that I had, like in the back of my mind go to the three day workshop.

[00:09:13] Let's go to the three day workshop. We get deeper into it. And I'm like, wow. Okay. Again, validating everything that I was thinking about. So let's go and let's get into this mentorship 2017 that same year I lose my mom. To lung cancer. And I had to take a break from a lot of things and all of that, like 2017 kind of put a huge financial burden on my life, because I paid for this really expensive mentorship.

[00:09:46] And we had a lot of costs for when my mom's PA mom's passing and funeral and lawyer costs. And that lasted quite a bit. And I also I took off from my life here and I went to Tahiti for two months. [00:10:00] I was making no money. My husband just had to get by over here. And we were just racking a bit and racking up that no regrets, obvious.

[00:10:08] But but then that debt and then going to, I probably, I feel like I went through a few months of depression for sure. That started like weighing very heavily on me. And I was always like, Hey, you got this mentorship. There is something there. You could be doing something, but I was choosing not to.

[00:10:25] So now fast forward to 2020 or 2019 again, I'm still working, I'm still hustling like crazy. And my husband at the very end of 2019, he just had a talk and he was like your daughter. And I don't see, you were just, like you come home or sleep. I leave very early in the morning. You just drop her off to school and then you're gone.

[00:10:49] You just see her in the morning. I don't see you. Can you like rethink your life? Because, she's growing up without a mom and it's not cool. And of course, like that tug at my heart and I'm [00:11:00] like, okay, cool. Let, what can we do? So I had a dance school. I opened a dance school in 20 2018.

[00:11:07] It wasn't, it didn't take off or anything, but it was income. It replaced my w to income. So told myself let me do the D school and real estate. And I'll lay off on the W2. That was at the end of 2019 within a couple of months. I give my notice and I'm like, okay, I'll just work one or two days a week.

[00:11:27] They, my job allowed me to just continue doing that. And then the pandemic hit and I now became a work from home mom, cuz my daughter was home. All of everything was on zoom and it, that is what helped me. With real estate and with my finances. So in early 2020, I took a look at our finances. And I even hired a financial coach to help me because I just couldn't see clearly enough within all the debt that I had and all the [00:12:00] goals that I had hired a financial coach.

[00:12:02] And so she is a girlfriend of mine. She helped me just organize my thoughts around money. She helped me take a look inward into our financial behavior, and she was very understanding, no judgment there. So my fi my debt payoff journey starts in 2020 mid pandemic and all that. As well as my real estate investing journey, they both start at the same time and.

[00:12:34] That first year 2020, I sold two wholesale deals. I made a total of $15,000 from wholesaling before taxes. I didn't touch that money. It went back into marketing for real estate and a mentorship. So I got into another, a separate mentorship, the sub two mentorship in 2020, everything else. My debt payoff was just from budgeting, managing our money and just, taking a [00:13:00] look at all the ins and outs, canceling some subscriptions doing nothing.

[00:13:05] Basically. We couldn't do anything. Everything was shut down anyway, but we also accepted food boxes, free food boxes from the local food bank over here every single week for weeks on out. And we just live extremely frugally so that I could pay down debts. Like I needed to see that big Boulder, come down a little bit.

[00:13:27] right into all of this like real estate and the debt payoff journey started at the same time in 2020. So 

[00:13:34] James Rippeon: what I think is super valuable about what you were saying is, you looked at COVID as an opportunity, it wasn't something that you were just gonna curl up under a rock and just hibernate until the end of it.

[00:13:46] You saw it as an opportunity to, tackle some of those obstacles that you're facing at that point in your life, which was, a little bit of debt. If you don't, if you don't mind sharing how much debt were you guys, trying to, to wrangle up 

[00:13:58] Tereva Jacobson: $150,000. [00:14:00] So that was mainly credit cards and one card payment, and one line of credit, everything was maxed out basically.

[00:14:11] Patrick McGrath: Wow. That's impressive. So you guys were able to pay down during the pandemic. $150,000 worth of debt yeah. In about 18 months. 

[00:14:22] Tereva Jacobson: So I would say just short of two years we still have a much smaller balance, but just short of two years we, I think we pay down 135 by now. Like I'm still able every month to put a couple thousands here and there.

[00:14:36] It's just now thankfully after like relearning financial behavior canceling things, reprioritizing where our money was going now it's a habit. It's just our way of life, but it was super hard in the beginning. Yeah, it was really tough and tough on our couple as well.

[00:14:58] It's not easy to restrict so [00:15:00] much. But I'm, obviously we are so glad that we did and. The thing back then. It, so it's something that I push now, especially on social, my social media platforms is anything that is worth. It is difficult. As we all know, like hard work pays off, blah, blah, blah.

[00:15:20] But it's usually hard only in the beginning, like it's and people maybe don't see it because it's just oh, I have to learn all of this. Like I'm not even going to get into this, but you do it for two months. It's just, it becomes so easy. Anything like anything in general in life that is hard and has so much worth and value.

[00:15:42] It's hard in the beginning. And then it's just natural. Like it's almost part of your identity or almost, so yeah, it was hard in the beginning. Lots of arguments. But once we started after, so that first year we paid down $40,000. Like I, I was showing him the numbers and he's okay, all right.

[00:15:58] So it's working. All right, [00:16:00] cool. I'll, I'll lay off and all that. And then, yeah, the second year through real estate, I was able to make way more money and all of that went to the debts as well. 

[00:16:11] James Rippeon: I think so that's totally underappreciated is the psychological element to debt. There's so much more to it than just the numbers.

[00:16:19] It's negatively self reinforc. If you're just gonna keep going down the bad path and you can justify, I have this expense and I need to take out a little bit more credit card debt to pay it. And the money's gonna come and you get stuck in this kind of, optimistic complacency.

[00:16:34] Like I'm sure it'll work itself out, what really causes the difference to be made is taking those steps to resolve it. And on top of that, the psychology also goes towards like your spouse and your significant other when you're trying to resolve Debt like that because not everyone's gonna see it from the same perspective or want to tackle it, as aggressively as the other person might.

[00:16:53] It's such a multifaceted thing. I know personally, when I look at debt, it's like a love, hate kind of thing. Like you've, I'm [00:17:00] sure gone through your experience with the bad debt of credit cards. And now you're getting into the real estate side of things where you're looking at, as we talked about earlier, you got the income and the mortgage payment and then the arbitrage between the two, that could be good debt.

[00:17:14] Tereva Jacobson: Absolutely. Yeah. 

[00:17:17] Patrick McGrath: Yeah. That is, that's so huge to, to take that giant number and squish it down and almost pay it off in two years. There's people out there with student loans that much to take 20, 30 years never pay it off. So that is extremely impressive. So let's roll into now, tell us about this real estate business.

[00:17:37] You said you wholesale two deals and got 15 grand. And jumped into another mentorship for subject two. It sounds like. So tell us that. I'd really love to learn about subject two and you know what you're doing right now in real estate. 

[00:17:53] Tereva Jacobson: Awesome. So I the pace more be's mentorship is called sub two [00:18:00] and pace Mor B is a genius at creative financing where we buy houses without needing a bank in any of the, in the transaction.

[00:18:12] So seller finance, if a home you're trying to buy is free and clear and is owned free and clear by your seller, you can instead. Getting a loan from the bank and then making payments to the bank. You can create this loan between the seller and yourself, and you make payments to the seller. So selling for super easy numbers, they sell the home to you for $20,000 and they want a thousand dollars a month selling in 20 months, they're gonna be paid off.

[00:18:41] So these are easy numbers. There's more into it. Subject two is when we take over someone's mortgage, the mortgage stays in place with the seller. We then take over the payments. Maybe, basically we're gonna make payments to their mortgage company. And if there's room in the deal, [00:19:00] again, all of these terms are very creatively created.

[00:19:03] We can perhaps give them some kind of cash flow, for selling us this home on subject two. Perhaps if we want to do a fix and flip, we're gonna take it over subject two for six months while we do the renovation and sell it, and then we pay them off and plus some, like we, we pay off their loan and plus something like really depends.

[00:19:21] So these are the top two strategies in creative financing and Mr. Pay Morby, he's super knowledgeable and he's a really good, not necessarily salesperson, but he knows how to like, teach us to build rapport and such. And he just makes creative financing more. He normalizes it, everyone that I talk to, all they know is, I need to go to the bank.

[00:19:46] I, I need, my local bank, my credit union, or a big bank. That's how I'm gonna get, and I need to get approved. I need two years worth of all of that. I'm sure you're, you know how that works. Now I'm in real estate investing and I learn about hard money lending, private lending, creative financing.[00:20:00] 

[00:20:00] That's a lot more interesting. There, there isn't necessarily more money to be made. It just makes a transaction E easier to achieve, but it's super interesting. 

[00:20:13] Patrick McGrath: I've got a question here. So I love subject two. I haven't been able to do one yet, so I tried to do one, but. Unfortunately, the seller contacted his bank and asked if that was okay.

[00:20:26] So how do you get around, the due on transfer clause, so they're obviously transferring the title into your guy's name, but the loan is staying in their name and you guys are making the payments directly to the bank on their behalf. So it's not going on your credit or anything.

[00:20:45] So have you ever ran into that issue and how do you go, how do you skirt around that? Without letting the bank know that's 

[00:20:53] Tereva Jacobson: happening. Okay. So I personally, haven't done a subject to nor seller finance. I'm [00:21:00] just aware of the processes. What pays Morby has in place is he actually has the whole system.

[00:21:06] Set up and we just copy and paste his system. So we put a servicing company in place. They, I, they charge a super small fee, but basically it's of like a servicing company for a mortgage company, a regular lender, I should say, where they make sure they're collecting your payment and they're gonna pay that's seller's mortgage company.

[00:21:27] And they make sure that tax property taxes and insurances in place. That's so honestly these conversations, they come before, like all of that, it just comes in before and we let them know, look, you can tell your bank, but this is deals not gonna go through. So if you do want this deal to go through, it's not that's the thing.

[00:21:45] It's like a super gray area where it's not illegal, but banks don't like that, but it's not illegal. 

[00:21:52] Patrick McGrath: Exactly. And because, so the reason there's a service provider in between is it's not [00:22:00] going from John Smith. To Patrick McGrath's bank account, it's going from John Smith to XB X property manager or something like that.

[00:22:12] Tereva Jacobson: And then the lender. Yeah. So exactly he He did share with us that it's happened to him and the bank. I don't know. He ended up contacting the bank and he's what do you need me to do? So he ended up just raising cap, private money and like he paid it off and he just had to restart all over.

[00:22:29] The other thing is the sellers. So that's the thing with subject to where you have to cover everything on the front end, before I would say paper paperwork is signed. The other thing is they can't cancel their insurance. So you have to let them if you cancel it. Your mortgage company is gonna be made aware.

[00:22:49] So you don't wanna do that. Like you, you just basically don't wanna raise flags on what's going on here. Because some, I've heard that some lenders just close their eyes and those are [00:23:00] rare, but most lenders they'll call do on sale clause. . Yeah. That's how we go around.

[00:23:04] It's mainly like just building rapport and educating them. The other thing that pace has in place, and I'm not sure that it is, it might be what that servicing company that he uses within a year. Somehow they create this letter to the credit bureau saying that they, this, the mortgage holder is not. I don't wanna see the wrong thing because I've never done it.

[00:23:29] So I, this could be wrong, but it, somehow they're not responsible for that debt. There's a little something it's drawn by this piece of paper it's drawn by a lawyer or something. So I'm not too sure how this whole thing happens, but cuz if someone's selling it to you and they don't get rid of a mortgage and they need to buy another place, are they gonna qualify if they still have a mortgage?

[00:23:51] So all of that, is really all of these conversations need to happen beforehand. And key trains on that. So [00:24:00] within our Hawaii network, I just, I know people who have done subject to and seller finance deals. So I know that when that happens, I'll just go to them and be like, oh my gosh, help me.

[00:24:10] Someone's okay. Someone's willing to take my higher offer on the subject who are on a seller finance, help me, we also have access to transaction coordinators. We pay them a fee and they just drop. All of the documents that, and it all goes through title and escrow. And so mortgage stays in the seller's name.

[00:24:27] Deed comes into the buyer's name. Very that's great. And not a lot of not a lot of title companies are gonna be willing to do that. So you also have to find the title company who's gonna be willing to do 

[00:24:40] James Rippeon: that. I've found that as well, even for, just regular wholesale deals, you'll have a lot of title companies that just don't want to touch it for one reason or another.

[00:24:48] So that just speaks the importance of building out your team ahead of time. And knowing those people you can go to for asking questions when these interesting situations pop up cuz you don't wanna be caught. Yeah. Almost not knowing the answers [00:25:00] or being stuck thinking you can get to the next step, but facing that hurdle.

[00:25:04] Tereva Jacobson: Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. My whole sales, I was lucky cuz we did it off the deal. Like I got the property under contract, but because I had built so much rapport with the sellers. That, they knew I'm like, Hey, just so you know, I'm not gonna be the end buyer. Okay. I'm gonna go and find someone who wants this and I'm sure I'll have no problem finding it.

[00:25:23] So found I find the end buyer, I actually did. What's called it reversal, sailing, where I found the end buyer. And I marketed to that end buyer's by buy box. I get under contract. I'm like, are you gonna take it at this amount? Yes. Okay, cool. I want this much. Okay, cool. And then when we went to, so the end buyer myself, we went to the title company and they were like, would it be cool if we just put the entire contract between your seller and this end buyer?

[00:25:49] Could we do that? So I spoke to the seller. I'm like, are you okay? She's basically gonna take it over, I'm sorry if this is weird, but it's not, we spoke to the title company and they're like yeah, no problem. They obviously, they were in the district [00:26:00] situation. They needed to close.

[00:26:02] Last month, they almo they just didn't care. So they're like, whatever, I just want money, whatever you gotta do. It's legal. Where do I sign? Yeah, so I, on as far as creative financing yeah, the title company kind of matters. 

[00:26:17] James Rippeon: So let's talk about your reverse wholesaling and developing that buy box.

[00:26:22] So I, I hear that I can think of what that might mean, but why don't you describe what that is and how that relates to your buyers and your wholesale transactions? 

[00:26:32] Tereva Jacobson: Okay. So every investor, every cash buyer has a very spec, like not very, more or less, they have a really specific buy box.

[00:26:42] And usually your buy box includes location, neighborhood, class ABCs, usually, depends on their comfort level and then a price point. So that you know, all right, if they wanna class B neighborhood at [00:27:00] that range, like I'm gonna have to get, I'm gonna have to just market here or there.

[00:27:04] And yeah, honestly that's what it is. And once you get something right on track, you just hustle to, you prove it to them that you've you, this is gonna work. So my very first wholesale deal. I found it through driving for dollars and then I came home. I don't know, we had a list of maybe 15 to 20 properties came home and I, print my own letters here, stamp and send it out, I think within a week.

[00:27:28] Yeah. Within a week, one person calls us and they're like, I'm ready to sell. I didn't think too much of it cuz I've gone. I've gotten very close to buying properties, whether wholesale for myself. And then they would just back out after meeting me or something. I'm not a very good like seller, like salesperson really?

[00:27:47] Like I'm pretty like black on white. This is this. And you know it, if it doesn't work, let I can see what I can do. But anyway, so we went yeah, we went to the property. I brought my end buyer [00:28:00] that I was like, Hey, this would work for you. So she came along. and it was super scary. Yeah, it was a super scary situation.

[00:28:09] The house I don't even know if water was working or something. It was pretty crazy big lot, two story home, great layout, vaulted ceiling. It just, the owners completely let it go. And so we walk outta there, we took our pictures and videos, and I of started like talking priced like, Hey, what are you looking for?

[00:28:31] He's this I'm like, listen, this was in the pandemic too, where we didn't know where the market was going. I actually didn't foresee what is going on. So I thought everything was gonna go like south . So I expressed that I'm like, Honestly I don't think we could do it at that price point.

[00:28:48] The we're in mid pandemic. I don't know how this could possibly work, honestly, so dropped it down. And he was extremely motivated. That's what that is really what played in my [00:29:00] favor. I could have given him, I don't know, a hundred K on this $500,000 house, he would have taken it basically.

[00:29:08] But we didn't, we made it fair and it was a very fair offer. I think 3 75. We ended up getting this home at 3 75, but we had every bad thing possible in it. I don't think there was termite issues, but it was a drug home. I think there was, there was just a lot of illegal activities there.

[00:29:26] After the clean out, when the junk removal company came by and cleaned out, they said, yeah, we could probably build like three cars. Car seats and fenders and car, it was pretty crazy. Luckily my end buyer had, she was I'll get in, it's a super scary situation, but I, I'm not gonna let fear lead me here.

[00:29:47] So I'll take it on and I'll give you, what, how much do you want for it? And I was like if I can continue learning through you, cuz I didn't know anything about construction, such I'll just give it to you for $5,000. Take it over. I there's, there was no [00:30:00] money on my part.

[00:30:00] Like she put in the EMD and all that. Anytime I have questions, if I wanna come and visit the property, just to be just to see with my eyes progress and ask questions, I'd like to be involved. She was like, yep, no problem. And that's how we close on the first one on my very first day.

[00:30:16] So rev reverse reversing is just going to the buyers first reverse wholesale, and you find out what they're gonna buy how much and all that you just as much as you can. And then you target your marketing there. Good area. Yeah. So that's what reversal sailing was for me. 

[00:30:33] Patrick McGrath: That's great. I think that's a great strategy.

[00:30:35] You find a person who's got the cash, you find the property, they want you link the two together and you make some money. So that sounds awesome. So tell us where you're at right now. Do you have any rentals? How many wholesale deals have you done this year and what that, all, what that all looks like.

[00:30:55] We can progress down your financial independence journey. So what's it look like right now? [00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] Tereva Jacobson: All right. It's easy. So 20, 22 wholesale, lots of learning, lots of networking. 2021 bought my first rental property here. It's a condo rental property here, 20 21, 1 hotel. Are you familiar with hoteling?

[00:31:19] Believe 

[00:31:19] Patrick McGrath: so. Yeah. 

[00:31:20] Tereva Jacobson: That's when you were, it's kinda like a, yeah, it's like a fix and flip, but all you do is clean it out and then sell it on the MLS. Okay. One hotel that I wanna say brought me $50,000 and then a super light fix and flip the place was just dated. So all we did was paint upgrade. We added back splash.

[00:31:44] We didn't change it. Wasn't there was no gut, no, nothing. Like it was repainting everything. And what they call it, cutting and then patching up. Yeah. And then we upgraded all the hardware, cuz it was a bit dated. And out of that I walked away with a little over $30,000 [00:32:00] and then at the end of the year, 2021, I bought two rental properties in Indianapolis.

[00:32:05] So I ended up going out of state now in 2022. Yeah, go. 

[00:32:11] Patrick McGrath: All so you found this deal as a wholesale deal, you got it under contract and then the seller allowed you to fix up the property or you actually bought it and then sold it. 

[00:32:26] Tereva Jacobson: Okay. On. So the whole hotel, what a hotel means is you buy it off market.

[00:32:33] Actually, it doesn't matter how you buy it, but you basically do very little to the property. and you just it's almost like a double close then you, but you double close on DLS. So like you buy it, you 

[00:32:46] James Rippeon: have to re retail wholesale almost. So like instead of to a off market buyer. 

[00:32:53] Tereva Jacobson: Yeah. And I got, we, I wasn't gonna do that.

[00:32:57] I wanted to get into a project, [00:33:00] but when we got it is when a lot of the construction costs like started like just rising every two to three months. And we got scared oh I don't know if we can do this cuz everything like we had to redo, we would need a lot of permitting and permitting in Hawaii is a huge.

[00:33:22] Component to your holding cost. If you start getting into permitting you can't do anything like you can maybe clean the yard, but you can't touch anything in, in, or on the house. And I didn't want to get into that. Definitely not for a first deal, so we ended up buying it. So we bought it as a short sale, we bought it as a short sale and because, so that whole thing took months.

[00:33:50] By the time we closed, like the market started just getting super, super hot here and we're like, should we try? Let's just put it on the market for [00:34:00] two weeks and see what the response is. And the first day we got it under contract. 

[00:34:04] Patrick McGrath: That's amazing. That's amazing. 

[00:34:06] Tereva Jacobson: Yeah. Those are rare, honestly.

[00:34:07] So 

[00:34:08] Patrick McGrath: yeah just a little. Just throwing it back up there. Yeah. So you actually had to purchase it. That was my whole thing yeah. All right. So we got 50 K on that one. 30 K 35 K. When you're fixing flip on this one and now you've got three rental properties, so that's fantastic.

[00:34:26] So you've done all that. So now give us an idea of what your goal is like, what's your financial independence goal. Things are starting to progress. The snowball's starting to get bigger. What's that number that you're looking for, for your financial independence?

[00:34:41] Tereva Jacobson: I honestly, as opposed to popular opinion, I do not have a number. I have an idea. So the thing is my husband loves his job. Yes, he could, he would love to not do it, but I, we both know he'd being miserable without a job. [00:35:00] So he loves his job and he now makes a really good, really good income.

[00:35:06] So I would probably, I would say easily, maybe $10,000 of positive cash flow after everything. But I'm not like putting a number like that to, to my goals because I don't want to be I have good momentum right now and I don't wanna be stuck on the numbers because I feel like I will pass on certain opportunities right now.

[00:35:31] So it's just where I am at my sort of like stage in my investing career. But this year I have really big goals. I want 12 doors in Indianapolis. Like the market love my team over there. I want 12 doors. So in January we got COVID so I got stuck at home and I ended up my first day of COVID.

[00:35:54] I ended up buying a place and wanted to keep it. It ended up working out [00:36:00] better as a fix and flip. So now we're, I think we're gonna be, I don't think we'll be done at the end of April, but probably early may, will be done with renovations and staging and putting it on the market. So that was go, going to be the beginning of my 12 doors this year.

[00:36:17] I basically just hustled on league generation after. Place. And I got under contract and had to fall out of contract so many times, but then last week or the week before, like just all within a week, we got under contract on three deals that are going to work great as long term holds.

[00:36:37] You honestly, I'm just, I want 12 doors. If they each give me a hundred dollars of positive cash for a month, I will be happy. I'm not, I'm more into the learning. I'm still learning. Like I'm forever student. If I focus on one thing, I'm pretty sure I'll be passing on too many opportunities. And I don't see, I'm able to find deep [00:37:00] discounted deals.

[00:37:02] I'll survive, whatever's whatever might happen. So that's dollars or break even. I'm happy. 

[00:37:09] Patrick McGrath: That's I think that's great, cause you're right. A lot of people do focus on that big number, when they're starting out and it's this big creeping thing and you already focused on a big number, which was your debt and you accomplished and you got that all down.

[00:37:21] That's really exciting. I think that makes a lot of sense that you're pushing towards just grinding and building and seeing where that takes you. So I think that's awesome. James, what do you think? Yeah. 

[00:37:33] James Rippeon: T I'm with T on this one. I, I know Patrick he's got these really concrete financial goals for the cash flow per month net.

[00:37:41] I'm kinda on the other side of that with T and I like to look at it like number of properties. So that's how I set my goals. I know a lot of people and it I just guess depends on how your brain works and how you process goals. And there's a lot of different ways for people to set those benchmarks for themselves.

[00:37:57] And you gotta find what works best for you. For me [00:38:00] personally, I've got a number of properties in my mind. Sounds like T's kind of in the. Same boat with that. And we acknowledge and we understand like, Hey, if we get those properties, we're gonna have that cash flow coming in.

[00:38:10] We're gonna have those tax deductions. We're gonna have that mortgage principle pay down and it's all gonna build equity and it's gonna keep going. And it simplifies it a little bit more and makes it almost at least in my mind, a little bit more attainable and measurable. 

[00:38:25] Tereva Jacobson: Yeah. And so I, I could make more, so I don't know why they probably like the worst business advice ever.

[00:38:35] All of my rentals are under Mar market rents. It's not that I'm not greedy, but I favor longevity and tendency. Over having headaches every single month or a year, imagine owning 20 properties. And you've got a turn every year because perhaps you're not priced. Or I am not dealing [00:39:00] with 20 turns a year.

[00:39:01] Like I'm, I would much rather make it nice and decent under market value. Stay there please. Forever. I hear a lot of my landlord friends. They're like, oh yeah, we have families. I have been there like 15 years wow, this is cool. You don't have you, all you have is like maintenance.

[00:39:17] Maybe, you're not gonna, you don't have to all the turns. And like in indie, I have a property management company. They, every turn, they cost a lot of money cuz I lose out a month or two of rent. However long this whole place is vacant. And then they take the deposit and they take the first month.

[00:39:34] It's anyway, so that's just me right now, Maybe you'll share this with me, our goals and our threshold for stress changes so it might be different in a year. I honestly wanna get my bigger goal is honestly, to get into small multi families, like five and up.

[00:39:54] That's where I want to be. I'm I love single family homes as [00:40:00] rentals, but I would much rather get into the small multi-families. I don't need the 120 unit building also. But I would love to get like a five unit five or six unit building. And yeah, just learning that. So I honestly, that's probably what's next, if I could get one this year, like that's probably like half of my goal.

[00:40:19] , that would be awesome. 

[00:40:20] Patrick McGrath: I totally understand like your thought process on that. Like having a little bit below market rent, so you don't get that turnover. Because people feel like they're getting a good value, so they're gonna stay longer. So one of the things that I do in that circumstance is I have all my tenants on month to month leases that just never end.

[00:40:41] They just re they just automatically renew every month. So there's never an end. There's never a time for them to start looking for a new place unless they really want to move a lot of the time. A lot of the problems with year leases is when that lease [00:41:00] is coming up, they also know that there's probably a rent increase coming up and they start saying, Hey, they start looking like, is the rent gonna go up?

[00:41:09] Am I gonna be able to stay? I don't know if the landlord's gonna renew my lease. So that gets people to start looking for other places or looking for a change. So I charge market rents on my rentals, but I put all my tenants on month to month. They really have. Want to they, whenever they wanna leave, they can leave.

[00:41:30] It doesn't get that in their mind that oh, nice. My year's coming up. My lease is coming up. So just a thought process on that, just a little nugget there, but I totally understand where you're coming from. And I think there's a lot of landlords out there that do that for the same reason.

[00:41:46] Cuz turnover does cost a ton, but there is other ways to go about it where you can increase your cash flow and decrease your turnover. James, what do you think? 

[00:41:55] James Rippeon: Let me turn it back on mute. Patrick, let me ask you a question. Cause just cause I'm curious right now, how often [00:42:00] would you do your rent increases if you're consistently on a month to month with all of your tenants, would you do it on an annual basis?

[00:42:07] Kind of just in your mind you have a program to reach out to them on that basis or would you do any frequent, more frequent or less frequent? 

[00:42:14] Patrick McGrath: Because I. Make my units extremely nice. And I'm the landlord that's pushing the market rents. So for instance, I have a Plex that I bought two years ago that we haven't raised the rents in any of the units in two and a half years because they're market rents.

[00:42:33] They're maybe only $50 below market rent. The tenants have been there for two and a half years. They're great people. They don't cause any problems. Everything is fantastic. So I'm good. But. For my new apartment buildings, I'm putting people on month to month. And when they're there for 12 consecutive months, it automatically will increase 5%.

[00:42:58] And that's gonna be automatic. [00:43:00] So I use a program called rent ready, and you put it in there and ITU and it's in there lease it'll automatically after 12 consecutive months increased by 5%. And it just keeps them on the month to month. I have put that in place now, and that is because I offered tenants from the property that I purchased instead of them moving out because they were so far from market rents.

[00:43:23] I put them in the middle. I said, Hey, you're at 800 markets, 12, let's go to a thousand. And then every 12 consecutive months, your rent will be increased by 5% to get them up to that rate. So that's just a strategy that I'm doing. So it's up in the air, it's not all the same all around.

[00:43:44] But, if you're at market and tenants stay there for a really long time you really don't have an issue with that at all. 

[00:43:50] James Rippeon: Yeah, I for sure, I always have these conversations with my clients as well, debating these tenant turnover and rent increases every year because we all know as landlords, like the most [00:44:00] expensive expense you're gonna have every.

[00:44:04] Year when you have to deal with it, it's gonna be tenant. Turn up. You got the paint, the carpet's flooring damage miscellaneous. I'm all on board with maybe keeping the rents reasonable and keeping a good tenant in there. For the long haul, I will say though when I picked up eight single families in high point, one of them just happened to have a tenant that was in there and I kid you not 20 years, 20 years, the same rents it was like 4 15, 415 bucks a month.

[00:44:27] And our minds were just blown at that. We felt really bad raising the rents , but we ended up doing it and they stayed and they ended up being good tenants, but just of the calculus you gotta make. So 

[00:44:39] Tereva Jacobson: I think those tens also know that they're, they've been getting such a good deal for so long that all fine.

[00:44:46] I'll pay more. It's about time. I actually, in my first rental here I inherited tenants, but I had told them, Hey, I'm about to buy this. The minimum, like obviously I'm gonna do some repairs, but the minimum [00:45:00] rent will be, I can't remember if it was 16 or 18 or 1700. They're at 18 now.

[00:45:05] So I gave them the choice and they're like, it's still more affordable. Like the two bedroom, one bath here is well over two grand, maybe 25, 20 $800 here in Hawaii. So they're still getting a good deal and they're paying way under market rent. But they like, they like me and I like them too.

[00:45:24] They're super nice. It's yeah, I don't have the heart. This is probably, that's probably why it's nice to be in indie where I don't have to have my emotions to. Intertwined in business when it comes to people, even though real estate is a people business the property manager's gonna handle that part.

[00:45:42] I would have such a hard time. Honestly, it would be super hard for me. So I, because I only own one rental here locally in my market. I keep it nice and I'm not losing money, so well 

[00:45:54] Patrick McGrath: you're emotionally tied to the property. You're emotionally tied to the people.

[00:45:59] You're right. [00:46:00] It is a people business, so all, landlords in the beginning I think feel the same way, it is, again, it is a people business, but at the end of the day, it is a business and you have to be, you have to be fair, firm, but fair that's how I treat all my tenants.

[00:46:14] It's firm, but fair. And that's just the way it has to be because people see weakness and they take advantage of that. And the last thing you want to be, the last thing you want to do is be taken advantage of. And it's it will happen. And it's happened to me, but most people are good.

[00:46:31] Most people are good. And if you're fair And treat everybody fair. Things are gonna work out to your benefits. I think that's great. So I really wanna ask, so your goal is to get up to these 12 properties. What obstacle do you see? That's gonna hinder you on that journey to getting those 12 properties.

[00:46:48] Like what's the main obstacle that you face? 

[00:46:50] Tereva Jacobson: Honestly, it's capital raising capital. That's the hardest, because I'm, I always shoot for Burr [00:47:00] numbers. So there's like the initial capital and then the refinance appraisers are love, hate relationship with appraisers. Yeah, so I've got that.

[00:47:10] I'm gonna refinance those two properties that I bought in indie and I've had to change lenders two times already, twice. I'm on my third lender. Because I'm fighting appraisals. I've had to fight two appraisals. I was extremely draining in one day. And then their terms changed and then the war affected the raid.

[00:47:29] So now it doesn't really work. So anyway, I was just like this is so much, but yeah, I would say it's maybe it's not capital. It's just, I'm very conservative with my numbers. So technically it shouldn't be the case, but just the lending space is also changing. Like DSCR are the rates are going higher.

[00:47:50] What else? The LTV is getting lower. I'm like, oh my gosh. So every time, like you think it's a good deal, but I have friends. We're going, we're [00:48:00] buying properties to hold them over. But because of all these changes, they're having to flip them. They're gonna get rid of them cuz it's not working. It's no longer working after the refinance and lower LTVs.

[00:48:11] And I learned that on refinances appraisals come in a bit lower. I'm like what? Supposed to appraise it. Not know why you're appraising, but I don't know. That's just what I'm noticing with my deals. At least 

[00:48:24] Patrick McGrath: I think it all really depends. It all really probably depends on the day the appraiser coming out there, are they having a good day?

[00:48:30] They having a bad day. Are you prepared for the appraisal? Are you giving the appraiser a packet of the comps that you chose? Are you giving them a packet of all the upgrades that you've done? Yeah. With why you believe that it's there. So if you're really trying to push.

[00:48:46] The area and you're trying to be the best and get the highest and best appraisal for your property. You need to be as prepared as possible and give that appraiser every bit of information to get that number, so [00:49:00] as much as it is the appraisals appraiser's fault sometimes or not faults or the market's fault responsibility, whatever responsibility or yeah.

[00:49:06] You also have to, make sure that you're doing everything in your power to get that number. And right now there's gonna be a lot of people that are gonna get screwed, that bought their property a year ago at 4%. Now they're trying to bur it and get a new loan at five and a half percent cash flow is going down, appraisals going down their capital.

[00:49:26] Put in. But it's gonna be a buying opportunity, two years from now a year from now. That's where we're at. James, what do you think about 

[00:49:32] James Rippeon: that? Oh man, I'm tired of appraisals, my market, where I'm at it's huge military base. So 95% of the contracts we get into are VA.

[00:49:41] And then VA loans are just super strict with the appraisal required repairs. And then just the appraisal in general just seems to be way harder to meet as opposed to a conventional loan or a commercial finance deal. So yeah I'm with you. It's an interesting time to be investing right now.

[00:49:56] You've got all these things in play. There's so many [00:50:00] factors that you could, try to sit there and analyze. And I acknowledge that, it's hard to underwrite deals because you're playing with all these numbers that are going super. Fast, like the appreciated, 

[00:50:12] Tereva Jacobson: that rate and changing, yeah.

[00:50:14] Changing. And then you hear on one side and there won't be a change. This is gonna keep going. You hear on the other side? No, like things are happening. Interest rates are rising. Nobody's gonna be buying homes and all that. But to that subject, I guess the good thing is that when we, we're always told to have a couple of exit strategies for that reason.

[00:50:35] If you've got a rent ready place, boom. Like I'm buying a duplex, it's rent ready, it's in gray condition and I'm getting it under market value. Great. Let's go. But but the I just always remember you have to make the best business decision, put your ego aside, your emotions aside.

[00:50:54] And again, just make the best decision here. I just I have this thing also with taxes[00:51:00] so I made $80,000 of fixed and flips last year. If I hadn't bought rentals, my tax bill would have been so high. And in a way I, I wasn't rushing into buying, but the two opportunities were great.

[00:51:16] They came and I was like, all right, let's just get it. Not knowing. Then I had to talk with my CPA and he's oh, thank goodness you bought them because now, you're what you always just a lot lower. I'm like, oh, so now I'm kind like screw, fix and flipping, cuz like all that money is like going to someone else.

[00:51:32] It sucks, but I'm not opposed to it. That's for sure. So that's the other thing like now I'm, I've really analyzed everything as a buy and hold. As a buy and whole, if it works as a buy and whole it'll work as a fixed and fit, so at least you're safe there. But and then in six, eight months, when you're trying to refinance the market is different then get rid of it.

[00:51:53] If it doesn't make sense. But yeah, raising, I would say raising capital is one of 'em and not gonna lie, it's a bit intimidating to [00:52:00] buy a five unit five unit property, I was putting offers cuz a a couple came on the market in Indy. So I was trying to, I still was putting offers on and yeah, I was just a little bit different.

[00:52:15] I'm like, ah, I don't know if I'm quite ready mentally and for that, but I know it'll, I'm pretty sure it'll happen. My, my agent over there is like sending me all these multi-family. Leads and because I'm at a contract on three properties right now, I was like, Hey, let's just hold off.

[00:52:31] Let me get these to the closing table, at least to the closing table, because then my team's gonna take it over for renovations and such, but let me get them to the closing table. Like it's it's quite an adventure or journey to raise that much capital. I need to raise about half a million dollars right now.

[00:52:48] , it's a lot. . 

[00:52:51] Patrick McGrath: Wow. You've got a ton going on, and I think you've really brought a ton of value to all the listeners out there about awesome, financial literacy, [00:53:00] being able to make it like wholesaling, whole tailing, doing a fix and flip, like buying rentals, doing all this in a short period of time, not worrying about the big goals, not worrying about the cash flow.

[00:53:13] Just keeping your head down, grinding and pushing forward and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and knowing that one day it's all gonna pay off. So I think that's amazing. And I think that this is a perfect time to segue into what we call the big four. So James, take it away. 

[00:53:34] James Rippeon: All right. So here's our first one.

[00:53:36] I want tell us something that you do as it relates to your financial. Independence in your financial life, that feels like a hack or a cheat code. Something that you do that kind of makes everything fall into place. That's really gonna help you get to where you're going. 

[00:53:52] Tereva Jacobson: Okay. So this might be a little bit, not necessarily controversial, but I do not [00:54:00] limit myself in the sense that one, I have way more appreciation for things that people call simple.

[00:54:09] But I just, I value so much of my time with my daughter that I don't care if I'm not, I don't know. I don't care if I'm not shopping. I don't care if I'm not doing something that I should be doing. If I'm with my daughter, I pick her up from school and we can spend time together. I'll do that. And if she wants a treat, I will get her a treat because I don't wanna deprive our life for financial freedom, because then it becomes.

[00:54:33] There's a negative connotation to that. It just becomes a burden. Ah, I'm sorry, we can't do this. Sorry. I can't get you to treat. Sorry. I can't buy you the toy. No. I've become not necessarily lenient, but I just I'm aware of my budget and my finances every single day. I just, I'm not gonna hold back on little pleasures for financial freedom because I still know that, I will make this two care or this five [00:55:00] key payment in a couple of months and this $10 toy or this $15 tree is not gonna kill that.

[00:55:07] Okay. So I don't know if I dunno if that's a hack, but that's just my view on financial freedom and debt 

[00:55:13] James Rippeon: payoff. I think that's super important. And there's a difference between. I don't wanna sound crass here, but being cheap and being intentionally frugal and smart with your money. And I went through like the cheap side of things too.

[00:55:25] In a in the past, now I'm in the boat where you are like, where I want to enjoy some of the things I'm doing and have a good, purposeful reason for wanting to make the money and progress in life. But what do you got, Patrick? You got our next question. 

[00:55:38] Patrick McGrath: Yes. So we call this one, the resources.

[00:55:42] So basically, are there any books, podcasts, or influencers out there on the Innerwebs that have really shaped, formed or guided, you're financial independence journey besides our number one answer that [00:56:00] we know, would it be, so we don't let anyone say it is rich dad, poor dad. So influencers, books, podcasts.

[00:56:06] What do you got for the people? Share it with us. 

[00:56:10] Tereva Jacobson: Okay. I will say that rich dad, poor dad did not change my life the way it changed everybody's life. So I'm not against that, but no, it didn't read it. He didn't sorry, but he didn't teach me anything. I didn't know. I always, I told you guys from a young age, I knew that lower debt income, boom.

[00:56:27] Like I knew that, but didn't mean that I was doing it anyways. I'm big. I'm pretty big on reading. I'm honestly, it's audibles. So this guy that I'm into right now, and he's not necessarily an influencer, but he does push out some content. But it is Alex hormo. I don't know if you know him.

[00:56:46] He's not even in the real estate space whatsoever. He is in the entrepreneurship space. Products and service services sold. He has a super good inspiring story. [00:57:00] Not your typical entrepreneur, suffered his whole childhood. And I made it, it's not quite like that. Of course there, there were struggles, but so I really like him, Alex hormo a couple of books that I've read just this year and that's why they're fresh.

[00:57:13] 12 and a half by Gary V. Love the emo, like just the emotions around business. It was just, it really opened my eyes and maybe my heart a little bit as well, and then valuing people, right? Like real, this is reality. We're valuing humans. The, another good book was essentialism by Greg McKee. Macon. I can't really say that last name, but it's kind pretty similar to the one thing or can, I can't remember what other books are like that it's just all about focus.

[00:57:47] He just takes it up a little, a notch a little by just doing the essential, like prioritizing and yeah, highest efficiency in the amount of time you give it. Authors, and then this [00:58:00] guy, this entrepreneur, Alex hormo, he may be an influencer, I think has a huge following on social media and on YouTube.

[00:58:08] But I discover him by accident, ended up re reading his book 100 million offer. I think that's it. Influencers. I'm not so big on like social media influencers. One, I have a love, hate relationship with social media. Two, I think people put out what they wanna put out. It's not necessarily reality.

[00:58:26] Myself included. I'm not gonna, there are things that I'm not gonna share just by choice. I don't think it's gonna add value to anyone, so I'm not going to, but yeah. So anyway, I had just think of social media as a, I'm not really big on the whole influencer thing. Perfect. 

[00:58:39] James Rippeon: I think that gives our listeners a lot to work from.

[00:58:42] I There's a lot of great resources there and, everyone's got that one thing that they like to pursue and follow whether it's social media or the audibles or the books. So a lot of good content there. For this question, we're gonna have you teleport yourself five years into the future, and you're gonna be looking at your, surroundings, whether it's your business and your real estate, or [00:59:00] maybe even your personal life what does everything around T's world look like in the future five years from now?

[00:59:05] Whether business personal or real estate. 

[00:59:09] Tereva Jacobson: Okay. My daughter will be barely a teenager. So I'm going to. Do everything that I can to reinforce her identity in this world. That's different from the world that I grew up in society, a different society. So that's gonna be one. She's probably, I'm going to continue pushing financial literacy, not pushing, but just sharing and being a good example, a good steward of our families, financials investment wise, the goal.

[00:59:42] So why 12, every why 12 doors? The goal is to own 50 doors in five years, four or five years. So maybe I'll be the owner of 50 doors. Hopefully half of that will be multi-families. That's 

[00:59:56] Patrick McGrath: amazing. I love that. I love that like huge [01:00:00] goals. You're two years in, you're keeping it going. And that's a great vision for you and your family five years from now.

[01:00:07] So to wrap this all up, what's the best way people can get in touch with you. If they wanna reach out and say, Hey, you were inspiring. All that good stuff, where can they find 

[01:00:20] Tereva Jacobson: Instagram? Because I leave messages and red until I can be present and get to them. Yeah, Instagram is the best way. So 

[01:00:29] James Rippeon: what's your Instagram handle?

[01:00:30] So people can reach out to you. 

[01:00:31] Tereva Jacobson: Te Reva invest T E R E V invests. 

[01:00:37] James Rippeon: Perfect. And we'll include that in our sure notes. So everybody can have that and just click on it and go right to the Instagram page and see what tees up to. 

[01:00:44] Patrick McGrath: Exactly. All right, everybody, you guys know the drill. If you guys like this podcast, if you guys hated this podcast, please leave us a review.

[01:00:54] Apple Googles, Spotify, Amazon. Sprout all those, go [01:01:00] leave us a review. And we'll talk to you next time. Thank you so much. Hey guys, 

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